Talk:Adept Guide (Mass Effect 2)
Warp VS Throw It should really be mentioned that in higher difficulties Warp >>> Throw cos everyone and his mother has some kind of protection. Powers Against Shields How do powers work against shielded enemies? From what I know, singularity does some damage to their defenses (it's significant, but not in warp/reave territory), "staggers" them (which makes them stand up if they're behind cover) and lasts for a much shorter duration. I haven't used shockwave as much, but it also staggers. We should probably add these effects to the class guide - can anyone speak to the effects or lack thereof for throw/pull/shockwave on enemies with defenses? :I think the lack of discussion on playing an Adept on Hardcore/Insanity (where everything is shielded/armored/barriered) is a major flaw in this article. Certainly, Barrier and Armor are weak to Warp, but Shields seem like the bane of an Adept and, having not played one on Hardcore/Insanity, I'm not exactly sure what an Adept does to counter them. Except be a really crappy Soldier. RobertM525 05:01, September 17, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm working my way through insanity right now and I can tell you that the game leading up to Horizon is difficult for adepts. Against shields, I like to lock down enemies with singularity and whittle down the shields with my SMG. Once their shields are down, they are pulled into the singularity, which makes them easy pickings. In my opinion, pull and throw against protected enemies is not worth it. Enemies are back up way before the power cools down. I didn't find the enemy's stagger very useful at all. I haven't put any points into shockwave yet, so I can't speak to that. A great example of using singularity to lock down an enemy is shown at the one minute park of this averageGatsby video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J7YvVRRdto --CasualGamer 20:56, November 8, 2010 (UTC) I thought I saw a video where an Adept was able to do a fair bit of damage to a rocket drone on Thane's recruitment mission. I'll try to find it again. More on the topic: the article states that Energy Drain is the "best way to improve the Adept's weakness against shielded enemies." This seems like a matter of opinion and I'm not sure it belongs in the guide. In my opinion, using Energy Drain on Jack's recruitment got me killed (long cooldown compared to other biotic powers). I much prefer Zaeed's squad disruptor ammo. --CasualGamer 23:03, November 10, 2010 (UTC) :Warp seems to damage shields at the 12:16 mark of this video. --CasualGamer 23:16, November 10, 2010 (UTC) Warp can damage everything. It deals double damage to barriers and armour and normal damage to health and shields. Freakium 01:11, November 11, 2010 (UTC) Builds Just putting this up as a notice- class builds, as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere (such as Talk: Gold Standard Class Builds) are inherently a matter of opinion, not fact. As such, they have no place in the articles, but rather belong in the forums. For an example of what a proper class guide page should look like, please consult the Adept Guide page. Note that it is build-free, but contains all the factual material you could want. As such, I'm going to be removing class builds from these pages, but figured I'd give some notice so that people could move the info to the forums if they want to just copy/paste it. I figure I can hold off till sometime Saturday (what can I say? I'm impatient.) before actually removing the info. SpartHawg948 08:28, February 12, 2010 (UTC) Warp Explosion Squad Build? I am surprised at the lack of any info on a Adept Insanity build focusing on Warp Explosions. Veteran players have already put up videos of Adepts wasting away opposition without firing a shot on their own by setting up multiple Warp Explosions. I was a doubter once until I got my own Insanity Adept (also my first ME2 Adept game) past Horizon, get the additional Biotic upgrades (especially the cooldown reduction) and recruit Thane. Warp Exploding away the endgame battle for Samara's recruitment on Insanity in less than 20 seconds was a stunner. And I thought a Charging Vanguard would be the fastest killer. I am no expert - my basic playstyle is to have the Adept use an evolved Singularity to hold down targets while having Miranda / Thane hit a suitably snared victim with Unstable Warp, triggering the explosion. Adept bunches up the lot again, another Unstable Warp from squadmate, rinse and repeat til the few survivors (if any) are so weakened they get shot up by the squad without a hitch. With fully evolved Biotic Mastery and Biotic Cooldown researched, an Adept will have -40% cooldown on biotic powers, meaning Singularity will cooldown in 2.7 seconds and Warp in 3.6 seconds. Miranda's and Thane's Unstable Warp will have a cooldown of 7.2 seconds. "Push" Ability? (...in the first paragraph) Shouldn't this say "Throw"? That's where the link takes you. Or is Throw sometimes referred to as "Push"? (Kinda new, don't know all the casual lingo yet) Stanleytweedle 08:40, February 6, 2011 (UTC) :No because it is copied directly from the BioWare site. Push redirects to Throw anyway. Lancer1289 08:41, February 6, 2011 (UTC) ::But, as it's been established, the BioWare site which has descriptions for the classes isn't exactly 'canon', nor is it always 100% accurate (See Sentinel Guide (Mass Effect 2), and the modifications that have been made to some egregiously bad sentences.) I'm in favor of changing 'Push' to 'Throw' in the article, which will assist users in understanding that there isn't some new power called Push, just that whoever wrote the description on the BioWare site was working off of faulty/old information. Like the modifications made to the Sentinel Guide, this would change nothing of the meaning of the sentence, and would better reflect what's actually present in the game. -- Dammej (talk) 17:51, February 13, 2011 (UTC) :::However the push redirect has been around since before this guide was rewritten and before ME2 was released, meaning that it is referred to at some point as push as well. Frankly I don't want another exception for the rule and I reluctantly gave in on the other one, and this one just is needless. Push already redirects to throw so I fail to see the problem. Lancer1289 17:54, February 13, 2011 (UTC) ::::I don't see how the existence of the redirect validates its usage in an article. Maybe if it were established by other uses in the wiki, maybe, but according to the 'What Links Here', it's just this guide. Either it was linked to before, but those usages have also been phased out, or it was never used in any "official" capacity, and existed as a convenience to users. ::::My argument is that using "Push" will only serve to confuse readers with new terminology that's literally never used anywhere else. We all know what's meant is Throw. Why not just say that in the first place? -- Dammej (talk) 18:00, February 13, 2011 (UTC) :::::My argument is that they mean the same thing and just because it is only linked to once also does not invalidate my argument. They mean the same thing and go to the same article so I don't see why switching is warranted. I stated already I don't want another exception to the official description rule as the more exceptions the harder it is to enforce. I see this one as just a needless change. Lancer1289 18:08, February 13, 2011 (UTC) ::::::It's quite clear that they mean the same thing, but that's not the point. The point is to better aid readers. The reason switching would be warranted (to me) is to narrow down the language to what is actually meant. Giving users that moment of confusion where they wonder if the Adept got some different ability is pointless. There's no reason to use a different term there, other than the arbitrary restriction that we must use the same language as the BioWare site, which is, as was previously stated not canon. But it's quite clear that we're in opposition here, so I think it's best to let others comment, rather than fruitlessly restate our (same) arguments over and over. -- Dammej (talk) 18:16, February 13, 2011 (UTC) :::::::As everyone already knows, the final decision on this rests with the admins, but they do invite discussion about things like this on talk pages. And I've been here long enough that they can probably already predict my opinion on this topic. So here goes... Understanding that guides (as well as some of the other page types) are taken verbatim from BioWare's website, I interpret the reference of the "Throw" ability as "Push" to be a simple error on par with grammar or spelling issues. I'm sure even BioWare would admit that they meant "Throw" when they wrote "Push". And since there has been a mandate here that minor changes to guides are acceptable (such as fixing grammar or spelling errors), and since this is something that only affects one page on the wiki, I would vote for allowing "Push" to be changed to "Throw" in the Adept Guide. But again, it's entirely up to those in charge of site content. Stanleytweedle 21:05, March 15, 2011 (UTC) And I'm going to say no and frankly this is one I'm going to outright insist on. I have completely forgotten about this argument so I would like to state this, where does it that information from the site isn't canon? Because that is exacly what was stated above. Granted yes there are instances where it has been demonstrated that it isn't, but otherwise every piece of information here has been treated as canon, starting with Ashley’s email in her article. If the site isn't canon, than neither is that email. We have a standard for the descriptions and for every exception it wears down that rule until eventually the rule is nonexistent and meaningless and descriptions will be altered at the will of someone who doesn’t like it. I am still against that Sentinel Guide altering and I am going to be against this one. Lancer1289 21:53, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :I think everyone respects that. This is just friendly discussion. And it won't hurt my feelings if the Adept Guide stays exactly as it is. I have to respectfully disagree, though, specifically with the idea that a rule loses its relevance if it's altered repeatedly over time. A rule is always just as relevant as the person responsible for it decides it will be, no matter how often it's adjusted. Alteration of a rule and enforcement of a rule are not opposing concepts. If the person responsible for the rule decides it should change, it will not affect the relevance of the rule in any way as long as the reason for the change is communicated and the rule is enforced in its new form going forward. I'm biased, though - my point of view has been affected by many years of work managing software development business units with many companies. To stay competitive, a company has to continually change and adapt their ways of doing business, both internally and externally, otherwise they'll become irrelevant in their market. The position that change is dangerous is not uncommon, but people tend to see over time just how painless it can be, and in turn, how important. This site's not some stuffy multi-million dollar conglomerate, but I can't help carrying the same principles of "change for the better" everywhere I go. Anyway - this is why my position is the way it is. The decision belongs to you guys. Stanleytweedle 02:24, March 16, 2011 (UTC) I would just like to add my two cents here. If someone who has never played mass effect 2 is looking at this page "push" can cause some confusion. For example push could be viewed as a new skill and when the link ends up on the throw page the user thinks "I already know about throw I wanted to learn about push." Just because this paragraph is word for word from the bioware site is not a good enough reason to keep this the way it is when it can cause confusion when people are trying to learn about the changes to adepts in ME2. Singularity vs Protection The ME2 adept guide is very misleading regarding adept crowd control; singularity IS effective against protected targets, if in a different way. This is in the talk if not the article for singularity. A person reading this guide would unfortunately think an adept is powerless against protected targets, when in fact stronger levels of singularity - especially Heavy Singularity - will often hold a target while its protection is shot off and then sweep it up. Weapons obviously benefit greatly from held targets, and combined with AP ammo can do brutal damage in between throwing singularity and throwing warp. I'll second this. This wiki entry is incorrect and misleading and should be fixed. Why bother to create a wiki if you can't communicate coherently? Thrasher91604 (talk) 19:50, October 25, 2012 (UTC) Warp It seems like the warp section has about a paragraph more than it should, maybe we should trim it. :Again, do you have suggestions? This is twice now and you have yet to offer any suggestions. You cannot expect people to do all the work for you. To that end, what you are saying is subjective to say the least. Lancer1289 13:36, January 13, 2012 (UTC) Similar to my comment on the Singularity vs Protection this entry is simply incorrect apparently. It says that warp is the only way to affect shielded and armored opponents. Wrong. Singularity affects shielded and armored opponents. Best at killing without firing? "The Adept is indeed the best class for killing enemies without firing a weapon" in the overview, despite being in the class description, seems to me to be rather false. After all, the ability to easily remove shields WITHOUT bonus powers is something an Adept lacks. I say their ability to kill without firing a shot is about the same as an Engineer, who, without bonus powers, is stalled by Barriers. Indeed, the only class who can, with base powers alone, that can kill without using their gun are Sentinels, who have Warp to deal with Barriers, Armor and Organics, and Overload to deal with Shields and Synthetics. I suggest the line be removed from the overview section. I am not arguing the line in the class description, since that is copied directly from the game. King of Noobs 21:22, January 24, 2012 (UTC) :From my gameplay experience (I played every class in Mass Effect 2 on Insanity), I can confidently state that, yes, the Adept is THE best class when it comes to killing without firing a shot (at least not fired by Shepard as the Player Charactor). :You are incorrect in stating the Sentinel is the only class that can kill with base powers alone. Many damaging powers can be used to damage nearly any target, for instance, Shielded targets can be damaged by Warp or Reave; Barriered targets can be damaged by Incinerate. Given time, a Soldier can kill a target merely by spamming Concussion Shot! :The distinction is that certain powers are more effective (gain damage multipliers) against certain defenses. Overload is especially effective on Shields, Incinerate is especially effective on Armor, Warp/Reave are effective against Barriers and Armor. The Sentinel has both Overload and Warp powers, enabling it to have an effective counter against all types of protection. :In that aspect, the Sentinel can be said to be the best at removing defense. :What really makes the Adept especially capable in killing without resorting to weapons is the ability to combo their powers into Warp Explosions. There is no tech equivalent in Mass Effect 2 (there apparantly is in Mass Effect 3, though, based on personal gameplay from Mass Effect 3 Demo). :Warp Explosions result when striking an unprotected character suspended by Pull or Singularity with Warp, which would cause a very damaging biotic explosion (effective on all targets in the blast). The power of the explosion is dependent on the Warp used to trigger the explosion (the reason the Warp power is listed with a Detonation Force and Radius; Unstable Warp evolution is ideal for a Warp Explosion Adept). With Unstable Warp, a single Warp Explosion is often enough to completely remove protections on other targets caught in the blast, which sets the stage for repeated Warp Explosions until nearly everything is decimated. :Warp Explosions can occur via cooperative use of appropriate powers within the squad. For instance, Pull is available to a Vanguard Shepard, Jack, Jacob and Samara/Morinth, while Warp is available to a Sentinel Shepard, Miranda and Thane (with Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC, Singularity is available through Liara). Thus, you can have one squadmate initate a Pull on a target and another squadmate to trigger the explosion. The Adept, however, is the only class able to complete a Warp Explosion combo on his/her own, independent of squadmates. :When paired with Miranda and Thane (and evolved their Warp powers to Unstable Warp), an Adept Shepard can simply do nothing except repeated flinging out Singularity and Pull while having squadmates shoot off protection and detonate the result combos. :Any of the caster classes can be played by only using powers to directly damage/kill. The Adept, however, is far more effective at this playstyle compared to the Engineer or Sentinel due to the ability to create large area-of-effect Warp Explosions on his/her own. SupidSeep 08:33, February 27, 2012 (UTC)